Washed Up Emo

#154 - Ian MacKaye

June 10, 2019
Washed Up Emo
#154 - Ian MacKaye
Chapters
Washed Up Emo
#154 - Ian MacKaye
Jun 10, 2019
Tom Mullen
Ian MacKaye is our guest live from the Dischord house in Arlington, Virginia.
Show Notes Transcript

A few months ago, I asked a couple of prior podcast guests Brian Lowit from Lovitt Records and now Dischord Records and John Davis from Q and Not U, if they thought an in-person interview could happen. Through their help and a little timing of a personal wedding in DC set this plan in motion. 

As this podcast gets into its 8th year with no signs of slowing down, I thought it was time to have the person partly responsible for why I first got into straightedge, punk, hardcore, and the DIY ethos I continue to carry through during my day job in the music industry at large. 

Ian couldn’t have been more gracious and after some back and forth and a nice Delta airlines agent, I was there with enough time to do the interview and make the wedding later that day. 

I never expected to have the opportunity to talk to one of my heroes in this setting and for Ian to spent a couple of hours showing me around the Dischord house, the archives and then an interview will be remembered forever.



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Speaker 1:
0:00
[inaudible].
Speaker 2:
0:09
Hello and welcome to episode 154 of the washtub email podcast. I am Tom Bone from washed up emo.com today, welcome and MCI from discord records. You may also know him from bands like for Ghazi minor threat embrace and be. Even a few months ago I asked a couple of fire podcast guests, Brian lowered from Lovett records and now just scored records and John Davis for Q and not u. They found an in person interview could happen through their help and a little timing of a personal wedding in DC. Set this plan in motion as this podcast gets into its eighth year with no signs of slowing down. I thought it was time to have the person partly responsible for why at first got into straight edge hardcore and the DIY ethos. I continued to carry through my day job in the music industry at large. Ian Couldn't have been more gracious and after some back and forth and a Nice Delta airlines agent, I was there with enough time to do the interview and make the wedding later that day. I never expected to have the opportunity to talk to one of my heroes in this setting in for Ian to spend a couple hours showing me around the discourt house, the archives, and then an interview will be remembered forever. This is episode 154 of the washed up email podcast with Ian Mckay from discord records.
Speaker 2:
1:39
You had MCI does Courthouse Bay 24th 2019 talking with Tom. I'm from
Speaker 3:
1:45
washed up email. Yeah. I hope that you always start your interviews was it didn't cause identification of WHO's talking. Yes. They pronounce your name and where you are and the date. Yes. As an archive is a person who deals with archives. It's really frustrating. I've been, I've gone through so many interviews where you just don't hear that. You don't have any idea where they are and I think location is actually somewhat interesting. I said, you know, maybe it's a context. Yeah, it's nice. Do you know where people are when you have to date people? Forget the date. That's the thing I'm finding here. Lots of the [inaudible] May 24th how much time is spent archiving at discord? I don't arrange my schedule and block. So I don't really know. In other words like having you here and showing you around that to me would be filed under archiving.
Speaker 3:
2:31
Right. Cause that's the point of the archives. Does this should be able to share stuff and show people if not the actual being archive the actual process to give the people an idea about may ways to organize things and make it more actually. Um, so you can actually engage with what you have. I would say, I can say that for the last decade, I have to put in an enormous amount of time into the archive work. Uh, there's a few factors that went into this decision on my part. One is in 2003, I had a good who, uh, died and another mutual friend, um, was named executor and I said, well show, how'd that go? And he said, oh, what a gift. You know, he may have fucked up and killed himself. But he also was like super exacting in his, like he, and he enumerated everything he had and directed everything.
Speaker 3:
3:26
So as an executor of the will, he just had to look at it and was oriented. Okay, this goes to this guy, this guy, this comics book, go to hear Bubba. The house goes to boat. He just did the thing and I thought about it, you know, the number of people have deal. I've dealt with a lot of people dying, a lot of death and, and I've seen the, a variety of um, um, circumstances that occur upon a death when, if, depending whether somebody has a will or it doesn't have a will and even if they have a will, how well, how clear the will is. Um, but mostly when people die, a lot of times it's just like their stuff. And what do you do with their stuff? I think most people stuffed means the things that they kind of like, that's their possessions.
Speaker 3:
4:12
But in my case, um, because I'm almost 60, I'm 57 now and because I've only lived in three houses, basically my entire life and I own two of the houses and my father still lives in the first house, which is the Beecher street address. Um, I have managed to accumulate a lot of materials and I'm not a hoarder. Like I don't keep trash. Um, but I have a lot of stuff because I thought they, for me, my involvement with punk rock, um, the music thing that was going on there, the social aspects of it, the musical aspect of it was super important. So I hung on to things because I thought they were important. Like, you know, if I was showing you the fancy in archive that I'm working on with John Davis from University of Maryland, John was also in Q, not you and Terrell tracks and I believe he was a guest on your show one time.
Speaker 3:
5:05
Anyway. Um, and you asked me what the hell, why did you, why do you have all these? I said, because people gave them to me. I though this, I'll hang onto it. I just put them on a shelf and I kept him, you know, just straight and clean. And uh, I just thought it was interesting. I thought it was evidence of, of us, of a society and like all societies eventually will be a law society. And so you want to have some shortage with the fucking pottery, right? To say like, yeah, these people were here. Ah, it's a nice thing to know. So I feel like the fancy, I hung on to things. I thought this would be an interesting thing to have. Now I hardly sings largely in just boxes or on shelves and I am, I am pretty much the sole possessor of the knowledge of what everything is.
Speaker 3:
5:51
Um, when I show you around, I can show you these really specific things, say, well this is this, this is this, this is that. I know that other people would have to guess that. Um, so after going through a series of, of dealing with people with deaths and thinking about, I was like, oh, you know what if, if I get done when I die, which will eventually, Ray, I'm going to die or soon. Who knows? Either way that stuff, like someone's got to deal with it. Now technically, you know, it'd be Amy Farina who I'm married to. Um, she's my next or kin and that is, uh, like I would one would assume that you'd be pretty bummed out that I was dead and then didn't have to deal with this fucking madness. So do the world a favor and start to organize. And it just, once I started that process, I'm sure thinking about, I like that.
Speaker 3:
6:46
Uh, it just dovetailed with a couple of other things. One was there's a fellow named, um, pure Oleksyk. Peter Oleksyk was a Nyu archival art student and he was working the film department, I guess. And he was working with Jim Cohen, the filmmaker who did the instrument movie with us. I went to high school gym, so he's trying to help Jim get all of his films in order. And he said to Jim Ozer, do you have your films anywhere else in gypsy? Actually, I have a lot of the instruments stuffed down at this courthouse. So Peter Asks you to come down to check out the Gym Cohen stuff. And, but when he saw my collection of audio and video and all stuff, he was like, wow, can I make you my final thesis? Peter, really, he spin probably three months living here and just organizing and getting it straightened out.
Speaker 3:
7:38
And he's a genius. And he was the one that really, he put the audio stuff specifically the forgot [inaudible] recordings into or some kind of ordinary created a database and started the whole process that ultimately became Fulgazi life series is possible. You would have gotten there at some point, but really, um, it was his work that made it possible because once you get it cleaned up you say, oh yeah, these are tools we can do, we can use this for that. But when they're all, when the tools are all just in a case closed up, you don't really know what you have. Yeah. And he was, he was able to sort of splay it out and make it more usable. And I think that he really inspired me a lot to continue that work. So I worked with a woman named Lindsay hubs on the flyers.
Speaker 3:
8:22
I worked with a woman named Mary Noxon on my vinyl stuff and a woman named Nicole proctor. Pinko has worked with me on the correspondence and our cover art. And some of it, it just continued that it's kind of an unending process. I thought I would stop and I was 55, because at some point you got to stop. Yeah. Um, dealing with the past, but it's not over yet. Come more work to do with, this is a lot of stuff here, you know, and what does it, you know, in the point people say, what are you doing? Are you doing a book or what are you doing? And I think this is so typical that people think that like, why are you doing this? Like what is the end result within result is for it to be organized. That's the, in regards to what I'm doing it for what it is.
Speaker 3:
9:01
I'm not thinking like a book or a movie would ever. Now those things may come from that. It's easier to find something if someone said, I need this demo from what you can find it. Yeah. Or you know, instead of maybe some will come from the point I worked in, which I work on watch, which in front of me, that's what I do. So when you pulled up today, I was pulling weeds off this driveway. Right. I work with John in front of me now. That's what I do. And that work, like you know, today I was pulling the weeds out of the driveway and that will mean that I can park more easily. He's hard to deal with, you know, whatever. Same Way, if you organize your stuff, you don't know what might occur because you can find it. Yeah. But I don't, I'm not thinking like this is, I think I might go or I'm at a goal oriented person period.
Speaker 3:
9:44
Like my, or if I have a goals are very short. Like right now my goal is to do this interview now you've been saying every let's, let's go to work. Let's do it. Let's just do the thing. You know? I quite enjoy, not to be presumptuous, but I, I'm, I'm going to say that seemed like you were, you found that like engaging to hear those recordings for instance, and you're like, well that's cool. You know, or you're looking through something like that's interesting. That's really satisfying for me to be able to share stuff. Otherwise it just me. Yeah. And it's nice when someone gives a fuck and then I can actually say like, well here's something you might be interested in. I don't, it's not a commercial thing. It's more about the idea that the world is filled with mystery still. And I love that.
Speaker 3:
10:29
Like I'm the guy who was listened to Beatles bootlegs. I listened to if I 70 hours of let it be sessions to say cause I'm cause me, you know the, you know they get back session. Just endless them talking and exactly. I love that stuff. Love it. I love, I'm fascinated to hear process. So I think that, I don't know if people, this is not to compare our work to the beetles work at all. It's just to say that I think there are people who'd be interested in like, well this is cool. I don't know how to tell the story. It helps give context. I think if you're hearing the banter back and forth and they say something different and then the hear the song differently instead of just hearing the song, what does it gives you? A sense of the process. Yeah. Yeah. I recoiled the word story began.
Speaker 3:
11:11
I think there's a lot of emphasis on story. I remember you mentioned that. Yeah. The word I don't like that day. Like, oh you know this, there's stories show important and something's wrong with that. But I haven't quite put my finger on, there's so much going on. I get what you mean. I mean NPRS lost its mind about story and we'll say, oh you know, there's so many stories and do people have their story? And I think, I don't know why people, why are people have, why, why stories? Why not actions like that. So you know, that's, that's the question thing about not having an end. It just, this is what it is. This is what happened. That's what life is. Yeah. A clicked for me cause I do archiving it work and I do it for my podcast and my website. I'm archiving, I'm documenting at the scene that wasn't documented and now it is.
Speaker 3:
11:54
But it made, it hit me one. Which scene was that? The, if it was the 90s was thousand college. It just, the bands that I loved weren't talked about online or you didn't see any knowledge that much. Right. I got you. But yeah. So then I said, oh wait, I know them because I knew the label. Let me talk to him. Right, right, right, right. And then it snowballed into so thing. But when a popular podcast, yes, I don't know. It's pretty niche, but I have people all over the world. But listen, I'm actually thinking, I might have just wondering. I used to have no idea whether this is like one of those things where, you know, I matter to me it could be 10 people or 10,000 or 100,000 or whatever. I'm happy to have a chat. It's definitely the for that era or those people who associate with punk and hardcore, you know, those bands.
Speaker 3:
12:39
Intermixes. Um, so this is the shout of wood wood being not just in turn of the one issue I've been having with the digital archiving you said so totally dependent and operating systems and sent it to all witchcraft anyway. Like you know, it's hard to imagine like paper and 1600. It bears some resemblance to paper today, but it'd be very hard to, for me to imagine that even 30 years from now that whatever devices people are using are going to be extension on the audio whenever that whatever it did, whatever the devices are that they're going to bear much resemblance of what people are doing today. I mean, one hopes there's always will be, people will continue to, like I think about the forgot you live Sherry's, which is this enormous website. I mean it's, you know, well over a thousand pages, so much work has gone into it, but if they change operating system, it just doesn't exist anymore.
Speaker 3:
13:42
That scares me. Yeah, I should, but I mean, but then I think, well nothing really exists anymore anyway, so it's okay. It's your trying, I guess you're trying to put it in a place where at if someone finds it, they know what to do with it. I'm saying that right now I have cassette tapes, French sense. Yeah. My grandmother recorded 1970 or something and they play just fine. And that's a format that as long as or as cassette players. Yeah, we're in business ray and I feel like that when it comes to um, digital thing, it's really changing. Like where you and I were just looking at showing you I have a table, a desk full of weird old computers and part of the reason is that there are certain programs that just aren't going to operate on later operating systems. And it also interesting that or the operating systems.
Speaker 3:
14:37
Like I went into a, I had a 90s laptop, mid nineties laptop and I, I was telling you earlier by Hyde I should have to sit in a car cause the only ac play workers a lighter plugin. I turned on and when did the screen came up? I was filled with a sense of, um, it was really like nice because I remembered there was like the, my endorphins fired off because that was a laptop we toured with. So we turned on and we just gauge gets, we'd get our early email like AOL stuff in mid nineties. So I would the I the, the mission was a tape that computer and then you would get to a venue or a hotel and then somewhere in Europe and then you would know we have to take the phone. We had to pick up the email using it on those, a dial up thing.
Speaker 3:
15:26
And we had the, Amira had to, because a phone that plugs are different. I would literally take the outtake though the, the fixture off the wall and I had alligator clips, I just bypass their thing anyway and then we'd get the mail and it was a manner like was was just incredible. Like oh my God, Elvin people writing all these letters and, and the just seeing the screen like the, the way that the desktop that I had, which was a sort of textured fake textured red thing. And senior, just merely I fill the endorphin guy, remember how excited I was to see that screen. And then I looked at it and I had no idea how to open up anything because the operating system is so different. And it made me realize that part of the computer, um, computer's the way the technology works is that they're constantly introducing new operating systems and unlike a lot of things, uh, there's something about this particular in, um, interaction that erases what came before.
Speaker 3:
16:32
So like I can get around and on Mac now, but if you go to a Mac this 20 some years over 30 years old is really hard to figure out. Totally different what it is. Yeah. It's so interesting my brain, even though at the time I was, I knew, it's like unlike any of the, it's very interesting to me computer that was an instrument, the one who is sitting in one of the hotel rooms and you're looking over email and it's probably, it is a black clam showing. Yeah. And that's probably, um, you know, just rearranging the thing about the kind of what, how internet or how the computer technology operating systems, how they like the way we engage with them. Um, which is very different than more like, you know, say recording stuff or like musical styles a little while to get up to speed on things.
Speaker 3:
17:23
But this is literally, I could not remember how to, to navigate this. I mean, I finally figured out by just, you know, which is also I guess part of the genius of, of computers that is intuitive and have some degree. But, um, anyway, he's interesting to, I think that archiving to the intern of archiving digitally, it's just a matter of redundancy, you know, because you just got to keep copying and copying, copying. I don't, I don't mess around with the cloud. Um, from most things. Um, for a variety of those drives. I have those drives, but then I have mirror drives. They'd live across the street, the other office. So I have the to drive and then I have everyone that drives is mirrored in every week or so. I'll do like Ameer update him and then I put them in a different location and then every five years I replaced them all.
Speaker 3:
18:17
Exactly as, that's the thing. People forget them that they'll go, yeah. So I have a lot of decommissioned drives. They all still work fine. They could be, you know, it's weird, some of them just keep working, but I don't hit them that heart. Yeah. You know, like especially the ones that are the storage ones, it is, they don't get played at all ray to get you or played. They don't get tapped. I don't know what would you call it, but um, but redundancy is kind of that sin. I don't know what else to, but I think from people today are even bands, they're not thinking about that. They think it's on their phone. They think it's there forever. They upload it to whatever website. That website could go away tomorrow that you're f you could drop your phone and lose everything. And I think there's a, not a sense of this needs to be documented.
Speaker 3:
19:02
It's almost like, well, it's going to be here forever when it really isn't. I don't know if that should matter. I mean it may be exacerbated by the way. Bye. Um, am I be exacerbated by the cultured Internet? Like the techno technological culture at the moment, but I think that they're in their early eighties punk scene. People are not thinking like this stuff is some we're going to keep Buderus through their shit away or sold it then think twice about it. They write. So I don't think, I think he's more about individual. Like there's certain people who have librarian brains or something. I seem to be one of those people. Yeah. And Jeff Nelson, who's the other, you know, the Co owner and founder of disco records, Drummer Meyer threaten among you among other things. Jeff, he also like he, I became friends in high school. Um, and there's just something about like our brains, like we both were really like we're kind of indie collecting but not in the same sense.
Speaker 3:
20:02
Like I, they did a great eye. There's heat. I used to go out digging for Soda Bottles, old soda bottles could, you can find them. Like if you go, if you're near like a, um, if you're ready to go road, a country road and there's maybe a corner. I got a hard corner. If you go five feet out or six feet into the woods by that, would you dig down? Because people throw their bottles out right the window as he just dig and you find soda. And I used to love going finding soda bottles with him. They just cool. He's in his sixties painted. Um, I love finding stuff like that. And then he started getting it, but he would just go buy the bottles and that's where the difference between a, he's a collector that we'll go buy the stuff. You're going to go find it.
Speaker 3:
20:45
I'm the only, I don't want it if I can't find it. Like I'm not buying anything. Like to me the joy was really, the joy was not having it. The joy was seeking it. And that's pretty much the way my life is. So seeking and then the work, yeah, it's the work on that. It's not the result. I might go oriented. I mean, one of your quotes, I think it was in, this is our work. No one else is going to document. We should do it. Why did I shut down? This was in the Husky, the HUC store. those@huc.com or something. Oh yeah. Hook from Vernon. Yeah. Nice people. But that, that quote kind of stuck with me cause it's your, it's, it's, it's on you to do it.
Speaker 1:
21:27
Yeah,
Speaker 3:
21:28
because I had the stuff, it's my crappier so yeah, one thing about DC, the punk scene here, we were documentarians, people really, I don't know, I remember be offer came here, he used to stay here at the house be offering, here's looking through our tapes and he said, man, I cannot believe how much documentation you have of your own band. And he said like, why did you guys record like all of you guys record all of your songs. And I think the reason for this is, is that in cities where music business was like New York or San Francisco, La, Boston, whatever, bandwidth, save of money, and they would go to the studio and they record two or three of their best songs to make a demo, which they would then pitch to a label, a kid, you get the label to pay for a recording, a whole album or something.
Speaker 3:
22:22
But in Washington there is no music business like that. And you have pitch pitching shit, right? So if you're a band and you've written a bunch of songs, you get near a device that will record your stuff. You want it all on tape, it's one do you, you gotta do it. You've got to seize the moment. So anytime we get in your own studio, we record everything. We weren't no reason to hold back at a bandwidth, probably going to break up anyway. Yeah. So get it down. But I think that it was pri primarily or largely could be tied to the fact that there was no music industry in this town. And that basically if we want to show that we had to make it ourselves. Yeah. Oh yeah. For people here, there's a lot of people who have like incredible collections. You're John Staff, who'd you use? A singer government issue. He died a few years ago. Um, and I'm, you know, I'm of course very dear friend and I'm close with his wife and I'm sure at some point I went over to help her look through some stuff and John's caution was like so organized, like, you know, incredible stuff. And he was so I think, I think really for the people here,
Speaker 1:
23:34
yeah.
Speaker 3:
23:34
It was important. It just meant something. And so for each of us had our, I think we, people hold on to it. [inaudible] it's like they're like your books, you know? Yeah. Something in it for us. And actually you think about the discord label, the label was started by documenting a wrecker of recording by a band that had broken up and we could have easily split the money up that we had 800 bucks. We could have taken $200 each, um, because may cassette copies of the recording we'd made and be done and be over. But I think we felt like, well this was really important for us and for the, for our friends. So let's make something that you can hold in your hand as a mean blues. The document, it was a document and discord has a label. Like I think that again, people, if we don't approach music, first off, I don't, I hate the music business.
Speaker 3:
24:32
So that makes it just for the given. Yeah. I just don't, I don't, the way, the typical way of doing things is not the way we do things, but I think in many labels they, with new bands, there's this sort of concept that you release a record from a band to try and make something happen for that band too. It's speculative, but from my point of view, like the bands make something happen and we document that it's a reversal. Like we save, we're not, we're not trying to put stuff out to make something like make something occur is that we saw something occur and we want people to hear about him. This is a different way of looking at it, but it's the same way. Like most most labels and band. We'll talk about a band, we'll tour, um, to in support of a record.
Speaker 3:
25:28
Well, just think about that. Why would human beings or the road to support a piece of plastic or a piece of digital information in the air? That just seems weird. I guess that, so it was that product was that the whole, that's what all this is about. The thing that gets sold, I say that the records aren't supportive. The tour, they're in supportive sharing with people. What this music sounds lake too. They have a reason to go see the band. It's, it's a reverse, a different way of looking at it. It's a reversal. And it's funny when you, I mean, again, like ours because the industry and capitalism and all that stuff is so central to our way of living that of course it's the thing that gets sold that seems to be, it takes precedence over everything, you know? Fuck that. Versus this, the artist as a whole, right?
Speaker 3:
26:21
It's music. Yeah, it's music. So the records exist. I think to be nice for guys, he used to say our mantra was the records or the menu at the shows, the meal. That was our concept. So people can listen to the records and hear the songs, but as they saw us live, they would get, they would get them in a whole other context, but because they had a sense of the song, they could really see the way the songs are developed or how they've, they've sped up or so down or they're louder or whatever, whatever. Yeah. But you had, but you are in on it. You knew kind of you, there was a sense of what was going on. Um, but never once did we ever think, well, by doing this show we'll sell more records. That just seems absurd. Or by saving the Xen, I'm going to use it sometime or I'm going to like get a kid giving you a scene and just being like, I'm going to save this to say, I mean, just overall on a, on a tour date, all those things are happening. You're in your journal that you showed me, you know, writing those things down is jotting you were doing it because Oh, seemed important to me. Also want to remember it. No, I think that's really important
Speaker 3:
27:32
and I don't know, again, I just loved that that was something that you thought about at the beginning. Like that. If you could talk about the journals a little bit, like would you, would you would have the tour dates and the people's information like those, well, my mother, yeah, my mother said to me many years ago, she said, uh, if you write it down, you don't have to remember it. So it took me a while to get really up to speed my journals. I, by the mid eighties I was writing and I'm actually typing up my 1985 journals right now. Should I just talk about like the first right to springs? Actually that was 84 but the first embrace show I just actually just typed about the first embrace show and I talked about when we decided to call the band embrace is interesting. Like so, and it was interesting is when you do this and my mother is correct in thinking that like if you write it down then your brain is released for having to remember it.
Speaker 3:
28:21
Ironically, if you write it down you probably will remember it because it'll leaves a trail. Um, when you actually commit something to paper or whatever. Um, I, I think the same is true when you type something up. I'm not sure. I think there's something about the physical act of writing that these are a trail in your brain. I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about. Some years ago, I w I had a talk at Yukon up in Connecticut and I was, I took a train up to new haven and I rented a car to drive up to, um, stores, which is the town that Yukon is in. And um, I was driving up, I think it was [inaudible] 93 [inaudible] 93 I had done many times before prior to leaving. You know, historically I would call people and get to get direction from them. But this was the era of mapquest. So I just print out the direction from mapquest. This is pry 15. Yeah, 15 years ago, I guess. Um, so I'm driving, I've been on this road many times. I've been to Yukon plenty of times and I had the sense of,
Speaker 1:
29:32
yeah,
Speaker 3:
29:33
disorientation or dislocation, really profound sense of it. I was just driving, I couldn't, I didn't know where I was going and I was like, what is that about? You know, like, like what? Like, why, why, why am I feeling that? And I realized that historically I would call somebody and they would tell me how to get there and they would tell me and I would write it down. So I am actually, while I'm writing down, I'm drawing a trail in my head. It's verbal, but that's the way, like that's the way humans used to explain things that you go down here, you have, you're looking for the, the, you know that you're a hunter and you say go down to the big rock and you go, yeah, there. So because I was just printing out the direction, I was having no engagement with them, I just keep looking down at him.
Speaker 3:
30:24
And plus I started wearing reading glasses at that point and I haven't had to, you know, take the glasses off and it was raining and it just fucking a nightmare. Um, so now and since then, like I will get directions from what, I don't have a smart phone, but I'll use directions from whatever, like Google or whoever, then read whatever. I write them down. I literally edit and write them down and I always know where I'm going. It's just a different way of doing things. That's why today I looked at the directions on my phone, but visualized the numbers and then put the phone away and it, yes, it told me, but at least I knew I'm looking for x number, exit seven and instead of waiting. Right, exactly. You don't know what's going on. What's the name of it to is isn't a side.
Speaker 3:
31:11
I've been thinking a lot about this also that when I drive or travel, I think of myself as a, basically a. Dot. Moving on a map. I think with GPS and pupil following the directions. Do they think of themselves not as adopt, but the world moves around them like they're not a dot moving on a map, but they're on a, they're fixed into the world is moving around them. He said, I'm, it's not better or worse. I'm not. Just to be clear, I am not a luddite. I just like I did just, this is to me, I may have come to weigh things differently, so I'm not like, oh, this is crazy. This new teacher. It's just something to think about. That's all. I don't have anyone ask me what I'm listening to and always been using Spotify or apple. I don't remember. Right. If someone, we have a session where we're listening to vinyl or we've got my cds out and someone asked me, I'm going to remember that.
Speaker 3:
32:02
Right. Easier. Of course. Yeah. I mean I can't remember what I typed in. Right, but what was playing well, this is what's so interesting too. I'm wondering now. It could be, I have wrote this stuff down in the 80s and I'm typing it up. I wondered if I had just typed up the journal, whether I would literally the demotion of typing. I can't imagine it would leave the same kind of mental map. This is rare. Like direct versus even if you're not cursive. I'm just trying to think this out. Like is it more of a flow? Well, I think the point is, and what do you, when you write, are you still journaling? I don't never journal toward like write down a journal. Uh, no, not really. I stopped about 90 mid nineties first of all, I was hard, Rick. I was touring all the time and it was just really, and when I say tour and we was no bus, they know we did all, like I did almost all the driving for one of the vehicles.
Speaker 3:
32:57
You know, I, we just worked that we'd drive all day, we go to the Gig soundcheck could have dinner, come back, hang out, talk to people, play the show, try a few more hours because the hotel sleep, get up the next morning, do it again and again again, again. So it was hard to have that kind of moment where you could just sit and write. And also I got one day I was writing in my journal that I had written in my journal, which I felt like made me feel guys lapping myself. What did I do the day before? I was writing in my journal and I was like, this is crazy. Documentations gone nuts and I stopped. I, I somewhat regret regret it. Um, but it doesn't matter. But I mean, none of it really matters anyway. You'd said that you said if you're in the same huck story, which I thought was that you'd burn up, it would all be okay. Yeah, of course. Completely fine. Doesn't matter. It's more the process, the journey
Speaker 3:
33:48
it's just to do. Yeah. The dude. Yeah. You're just doing it. So if it ends, it ends. Yeah. But I think if someone, every day I wake up with something to do that I want to do, that's pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. It was picking weeds earlier. It was, then there are days where I met. You enjoy it. You enjoy the archiving. I do. I love it. Dick detective work. That's why I really love. But yesterday tell when you were showing me stuff, you were, it was, you know, this person knows that. I mean, you fixed one of the entries. Yeah. Yeah. For the tat. Um, yesterday I was looking at, someone recently sent me some scans of a article that was written in 1980, 1980, the teen idols and the untouchables. Um, my brother Shane with the untouchables. And, um, we went, did a show at a place called Taj Mahal, Norfolk, Virginia.
Speaker 3:
34:43
Still kind of a legendary show. We went down to this just to the two, his went down and we just completely, it was so rambunctious. I, we just, you know, there's like a new wave plays so weird or were you, I mean, just crazy that we went down there, but someone sent me a photocopy or a scan of a photocopy of that article written the Virginian Virginian pilot. Wow. About that show I'd never seen before. But in the end, the thing, there's photos and one of the photos shows me and my brother could, we were like, like I forgot we were messing around. So we are dancing. We were all like just rolling around on the floor and stuff during, I think it was a ditch and they didn't like the record. If we would just jump up and down the floor, who would to make the record skip?
Speaker 3:
35:27
So in this fund I'm just seen you see us all like, like on the floor and stuff. And I thought this is incredible until as I just I to see this photo because it just a, it's a scan of a photocopy. Right. And it's also a free newspaper. So you already have like the dots and now it's like, yeah, I said so then I looked at it photographer. So last night I probably spent an hour doing research trying to find this person. Haven't found them yet, but I have some leads. This is, I love this stuff. Wouldn't the one at the library or the local have the, what was the microfiche? What was the yeah, by one of the print of the actual negative. Wouldn't they have that when you can look at like the newspapers would have the original, I used to be able to, when I was researching for the Internet, you would have to search in the library of passing newspapers lot on newspapers.
Speaker 3:
36:15
Would you have the libraries microfish that's what I was trying to say. But that doesn't have, that's just, those are like pretty low res Scans of the newspaper. You can read them. They're good for that. But have you had to for print? We didn't get to the negative, you know? Yeah. You get back to the source detective. That's what I'm saying. Right. So I really love, I love that kind of stuff and turn to archiving. Like I love connecting the dots and turned to finding things that just so satisfying for me. I had a guy, um, you know, we started working on about five years ago. We still working on the correspondence I had, I answered almost all my mail. I still answer a lot of my mail emails made it very difficult for me, but I try, um, thank you for answering mine. Sure.
Speaker 3:
37:00
Um, so when I, my process would be that I would answer, I get a letter, I said, I sit, I sit down at my desk, I answer letter, and there's a boxer and my desk, when I finish it, I'll put a check on the front of it and I throw the letter in a box. So then the boss got full. I would close the box up and stick it into some eves. I've upstairs, I have these like sort of hidey holes. So basically working with this woman, Nicole Proco Pinko who she worked for, the Smithsonian Folklife center, um, Uros motorcycles. This is the role. Elephant knows, rolling thunder, the memorial memorial weekend. They had this giant motorcycle rally, so on Fridays, right before it hear motorcycles all day. Um, but anyway, uh, Nicole Works Workers Smithsonian Folklife center and she would actually be working for full ways, which sort of connected and I had gone down there and that jaws walk my room.
Speaker 3:
37:57
I was introduced to her and she was going through somebody's, a boxing correspondent from, uh, a full party list or a jazz artist. And I said, okay, I show you some questions. Can I have all these letters? She came out and looked at the question. She said, I'll, I'll work with you. So she, I've worked on this for ages and ages. Um, breaking out the, getting an organized and breaking into his broken into four basic subsets. There's discord, Meyer Threat Fulgazi and then Ian, uh, within each of those things are subcategories. Like friend, Pin Powell, um, like general correspondence, seen reports. Senior porch is really cool. The kids is writing about what's going on in their scenes. Are there Kai de Moines Tom by like there's the f the band. Like there's, you know, the band, all the targets are pretty cool. You know, what every night would ever just stuff like that. Like, and then, um, I say in the mire threat folded, we have a section about, um, we have a folder for like people ready, much straight edge. We have one folder just about people upset with us for breaking up with Ozzy is folded about suggestion.
Speaker 4:
39:03
MMM.
Speaker 3:
39:05
So I have all the subsets anyways, really satisfying to break it all out and do different things and makes it usable. All this otherwise cardboard boxes filled with mail. And at some point during that time I had a call from a guy who's working on a book about Eastern European pump and he just wanted to know, he said he had met, talked to a guy from East Berlin who in the early eighties used to write to discord. And, um,
Speaker 3:
39:36
we were no notable for turn because we actually returned, we wrote back and he's wanting to know whether I remembered this guy turn and I said, you know, sounds familiar, sounds familiar, but let me, you know, let me come, let me get back to you in a few minutes, cover in the middle of something. Why didn't tell him that I had, we had this archive. So I went through and I found the letters. Wow. Turn. So I called, I said, yeah, I have the letters from turn. And the guy whose mind was blown, then he say, can I get a photo? Can you scan it for me? I said, no, you could. I don't own, who's written on this page is belonged to turn, not me. Oh, interesting. Right. You have to think about this stuff. So a lot of the letters I have of what this, yeah, you're with horse and that says Tim, one of the issues I have with this collection is that there are a lot of stuff in there that's super personal.
Speaker 3:
40:26
And the photos are tough too because it's the fear of who the photographer is. And if that's a little less deaths, a little less tricky. I think he's less tricky because let's say you wrote me a letter about like some straight it, so it's orchard bought straight edge. Okay. So then let's say you said you were rainbow strange because um, your brother, um, oh deed and that you and that you're, you know, you're, you were abused as a child or whatever. Like do you want me had that, you want that scan and put up on the Internet. So if someone wanted me to get your letter one day, I say like, well, if Tom calls me and gives me the green light, I'll do it. I said, actually what I tell people is I will sin the author a scan of it and if he or she could decide whether it was up to them, if they want to share it, but I can't share stuff.
Speaker 3:
41:12
They personally, right. They purse, they sent you a personal letter to you. Right. And they owned, they had the copyright on the stuff. But it's one of the reasons that I've been really reticent to place this stuff anywhere because I, I feel like I have a responsibility to all those people. Anyway, he said, can you send me a scan of this thing from disk? I turn. I said, no. So I if turn also determine until I heard from turn who couldn't believe I still had the letters. Um, there's something really, it was very satisfying about that whole, that exchange, you know, just, I feel like it also, he's writing a book. It was useful for him to actually see the, there's actually a Swedish woman or author here the other day, and she's talking about a book she's working out about these early punks. I saw, yeah, I have letters from that guy.
Speaker 3:
41:59
And she was completely blown away by him. That gives it other contexts that you wouldn't get otherwise. Correct. And that's why I feel like that's the importance of it. And that gets me excited if I'm the detective and me trying to figure out like, oh well that live performance is different because that guy was in this and that this person was a right. It helps. Gives it context instead of, it was just another show. Right. Yeah, and it's funny, I did a lot of times like I'll be working on something else. I go, this can't be right because we're wearing this pair of shoes or are we going to get the picture like that? This would be a different show or that city was, right. Exactly. I just, I'm just, I noticed stuff like that. Just the way my brain works by a tribe I've, I probably enjoy it too much cause there's other work that I don't get done. Got To get, what other work are you supposed to be doing? You know, making records and stuff. That's how I'm supposed to be doing. Do you feel like that's slowed down from focusing on the archiving is not slowed down, but the last time?
Speaker 1:
42:58
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
42:59
Yeah, I'm might, yeah. I don't know if it's not time. It's, it said, I think that I have the archive thing is can be sort of um, addictive. I just get into it and I think I should finish it. Like today when we were going to do lettering and I noticed that the guy had the wrong the wrong city.
Speaker 1:
43:19
Okay.
Speaker 3:
43:20
I'd have to, you know, I probably should've made a note to myself to come back to it, but I think I should just do it now. Otherwise I'll forget. You're going to forget. Could I say then the truck go by? Um, that's the other thing is it like, you know, I was a computer. If you don't act on it, you may was very hard to see what's undone. Like I think I'm very tactile, so like a lot of times like what reminds me is, which on my desk, on my actual desk and like I don't, so it's very difficult as with a computer and there's nothing there. So it's just a plastic box or same thing with like the, you know, Spotify or apple, right. If you go into your computer, if you don't have that to do list, it's just this almost, it's blank.
Speaker 3:
44:04
So I'm, I'm very like not be inbox zero but very like I'm going to get this done and I'm going to do it and I'm not going to have to think about it again. Robin. I'm in box 2100 right now, but that's just the way it goes and more stuff's being sent in. Right. People are sending in and shows my general respondents. That's just my, yeah, slow down but it's still goes on. I suit. Nice. What was really interesting is that, well we did the live Sherry's, we had, we made, which we sold the rag, giving away this, the shows we, we, we asked for five bucks without was funny cause the $5 show, right. But if you look closely, if there's an option to pay less, yeah, you can pay as little as a dollar. Um, which mini mini mini mini people take advantage of, which is great.
Speaker 3:
44:54
We don't care. Mostly we spend an enormous amount of money and time to make this project and we feel like people should contribute towards it. It's not just everything's free, you know, we want people to have a sense that like they were a part of it. Um, one of the things at some point I had know with this idea that we figured there were people we knew who are very well off, like specifically musicians who would want to like be supportive of the project, but they would never suggest it and we would never ask. Um, so we came up with this idea of the all access pass. The all access pass is basically you just get every show and it was 500 bucks, right? $500. But you get for that, you know, you get a thousand shows. So was 50 cents a show. So we did, we did the all access pass and we got, oh, they read away like 20 or 30 people.
Speaker 3:
45:52
Wow. Which is amazing. Right? Uh, and there are not, ironically, none of them were our rich music for rock band guys at all. It was all this people like dentists and people who are just really want to support the project and it made sense in the beginning. That was 2012 right? Or 2013 somewhere in there. It's been quite awhile and use, wait, yeah, sorry. So, so yeah, but that, those things can you, wouldn't you know you of you kind of Peter out every few months still somebody we can all access pass still another $500 and I just, it's what's rooted. I always send them a note from me telling them, thank you so much sugar. This is like your support for this project. Romans, ally, Blah Blah. And they never respond. Never, never. Not once the email that was, it's no till we, whatever that know what I'm saying?
Speaker 3:
46:52
No email. It's not like a, it was there, but be there. The money was real and they got the Oxford all access pass by always. Totally. They, I write to them and say, hey, why don't you know like this is what we've been working on. It's a crazy project, but your support is genuinely appreciate it. Thank you very much. And you would think they'd tell you get so nice to be a part of it. No one ever writes, I don't know why. Interest here is very interesting. I don't know what that's about. That's weird. Like they didn't get it or they did get it. I think there's don't, I'm literally writing just a thank you note and made these things like, well what can they say? Thank you for the thank you. Yeah, yeah, you're right. Yeah. It turns into the thank you fast. Yeah.
Speaker 3:
47:36
By you. I sort of fear appeals. Just like, you know, wow, it's really cool that you would send the new or whatever, whatever. But, and I don't know, I haven't, there's no way to know whether they actually listen to the shows. Cause basically what happens is your, when you get older, you'll know, right? No, you don't know. You just get, basically you're on your account page on did this site. You get a little tab that basically every show as it's uploaded becomes available. So boy, there's no way for us to, or if there is a way I'm not aware of it, how to actually audit by us. You don't really care. Yeah, no, that's doesn't matter. I don't ever, people often say like go, how many have you sold of this? Angry? I have no idea. I just don't pay attention as they're up there.
Speaker 3:
48:17
They're for people. Exactly. Yeah. I was struck in the very beginning because I was just somebody like what are, what are the most downloaded shows? And the first show was the first, which makes sense. The last show was second. That makes sense. But the third show was this really kind of random show from La. Like the showed that we did, I think the palace as like 97 or 98 or something may [inaudible] nine anyway, I was like, why? Like why is the palace, why is this show? Because I remember this show, but I don't remember being particularly interesting. Yeah. And it was because we had a rating system that it shows, again, an excellent rating over quality. Right. And this freaked me out because we decided early on we did this site, we wanted to put this, we thought maybe we should put her things here, like roughly with the quality of the sound is so people have some idea.
Speaker 3:
49:25
I mean we also, it's actually the first thing I look at after I look at the are I know what date is. The second thing I look at is the quality. And I think, and I actually argued strongly and should we ever redesign, I'm going to try to push, I'm going to get rid of the rating because I think it's, it's a red herring. And I think that, I find it very strange that people want to be like, we have a sample. Usually. You mean they're now operating systems are making him disappear. But for years there was a way to listen. Yeah. It's actually, yeah. The same of them are now you can decide whether it sounds good or not. Um, but the, the rating system itself, I remember we first came up with the idea, they go here, what we'll do, we'll do like a,
Speaker 4:
50:12
uh,
Speaker 3:
50:13
for a star system. Like, you know, four stars. So we're gonna just have literally to have little stars and they fill in. So when the first person who was helping us do this stuff, as he edited and he mastered edited the songs or write the shows, I should just decide like one to four stars. And just so when you send it through to leave things like this is a three star or two star, whatever it is, just let us know while we're getting the site up and running. It turned out that the star thing was not going to work for, I don't know the technical reasons, but we had to go with text. So, so much. Well, we could write one star, two stars, these star. That's absurd. Let's re pour good. Very good. Excellent. And that represents a four stars, right? So as I was uploading the shows and going through them, I started noticing that the guy that was rating him, it's been a pretty tough critic, right?
Speaker 3:
51:12
They, everything was like poor or just good. And I'm like, God, these songs and these shows, I'm pretty good to me. Why are they getting, yeah, you're like, the poor one sounded great. So I called him up and I said, are you, I'm confused. Are you being, and he said, no, I'm doing, I'm doing the star system. And I said he was, yeah, like you know one stars the best, you know. And I go, no, oh no, let's start not the best. It's the worst. And he's like, oh these didn't know how many did he go through before that? A couple of hundreds realm man. So then I was like no big deal. They will just like flop them, flip it around. But the person was working one of the people working on it, it was a little dyslexic and so it gets very confusing. So who knows what anything means.
Speaker 3:
52:00
Right. And also what's the criteria? We were just talking about the sound quality, but I would argue that a show, like I'm a different set list that was done on that to know more and more to the point like a show where like they just, we did in Chicago where these skinhead guys took over the state and we hit him our instruments. And they do an impromptu show in the middle of suggestion. Wow. That's fucking cool. Right. That's to be excellent. Right. In my mind, the sound quality's not that great. Yeah. So the criteria to me, it's so, it doesn't have any real meaning after looking through out. I would take it away and it would almost be like notes of, of note of the show saying that way I did, that's what I've tried to do best. So that's a lot of work. Daunting.
Speaker 3:
52:46
Um, when I looked at our like we should get rid of the rating system because it's doesn't make any sense. And if it was, I think the power shoulder, they do sound good and I'm, and people like him. That's great. But man, I wish you'd hear the show where really the power gets cut off in the [inaudible] 400 Italian sing waiting room acapella. Just drums. It's incredible. Right? It's incredible. Yeah. This show, would you be excellent? Right there show we did in Dallas where the police shut the show down and made the crowd go stand out in the street and we played to an empty room and the had the doors open. The music went into the street from there and on that cute to basically the kids dash in the middle. They close the street and the kids dance in the street. They were jumping off a parked cars and I found in the thing actual on a second.
Speaker 3:
53:37
Yeah. Yeah. I actually, someone sent me a recording that the kid had a tape deck with them out on the street recording that show recording the, yeah, from the outside. So he's on this and you hear him go like, Dude, hold my keys. I'm going to jump. I'm to go out dancing. And Reverend you hear like, it's just so cool. It'd be fun to mix the show you recorded. Would that be hard to do? I just think it'd be fun. It'd be hard, yes. But it's just how he does a buddy. So if you look at that when the Dallas thing is Dallas 90, there's a great photos from that, but they're very end of it. There's a thing that says outside the Gig. Do you can actually hear I included that in the mix. Those to me are more interesting, but I'm from a sociological point of view.
Speaker 3:
54:19
Yeah. But you know, but if people just want excellent quality than this depend what they think is excellent. Yeah. I liked that. Um, I did want to bring up the word emo showrunner. Right. So I know it's always had a checkered history. It was hated the first day that was uttered, I think. Correct. Well, in DC in mid eighties, that time there was this stuff called like metal core and people are, the word core was being attached to everything. And we had kind of a running joke, like Ska core and you know, and you know, uh, you know, um, was there scowl core and goth core and, but he's head of stuff like that. And um, I'm pretty sure it was Brian Baker who was the bass player, Meyer threat and then Houston diagnostic. It's playing guitar. And I think he came up with Emo Corp, which was short for emotional hardcore. And he was a joke that he was in his derived derisive a little vague in front of us. I say us, I mean really righteous spraying and embrace him, lunch me to some degree and you know, but it was sort of, uh, it was, uh, you know, the mid eighties response to the, um, what was happening in the shows, which was a lot of skinhead nonsense. And um,
Speaker 1:
55:37
and uh,
Speaker 3:
55:39
yeah, we were like, oh fuck, you know, but mash and rock and roll picked up on him. Tim Yohannan. And He loved it because he, Tim was a real purist and turned to punk. Like he liked it fast and hard. He loves sweet, like hardcore, like metal, almost metal. He loved milling metal core. He liked fast, but he loved, sorry Tim League, like finish hardcore, like really extreme thrashed stuff. Um, and he did not understand what we were up to here with rites of spring, uh, embrace. Um, so they were gleeful when they came across as emo core thing. So every review, oh, email core, get out your hankies, you know. Um,
Speaker 3:
56:25
and which by the way was pretty apocryphal this business about people crying in the shows. It's so ridiculous. I never thought it was crying. I always thought it was just, I was thought email was with the bands that I was seeing or at least later in the nineties were, it was like the, it was a moment that you thought was going to break but didn't, it was more euphoria. It was more of a a crescendo and it keeping together, I got an overwhelming kind of moment I guess. But the point being that the whole idea of you, we just saw, we saw, we were thought were punks and we are just this punk music by our, because we said so, but so when playable put this other thing on emo core. In the beginning it was really kind of derisive and as an insult in a way. Then there was these, but I used to think of like backpack kids.
Speaker 3:
57:13
I did screamo or emo early stuff and I saw that and I was like, well, these kids going off like they would play, I can't remember some of the bands like what years 89, 88, 89 90 that early to full boar screaming. They just, yeah, going off and I get it. I can see why they could call us emo quarters. Like screamo it was like, yeah, it was like, it was like, um, um, screamed therapy, you know, and I understood it that degree then it be emo became sort of a, I mean it seemed to me to be sort of, they want you became a genre. It was pretty, they didn't, I found it to be, it was sort of a more mid, middle of the road kind of stuff. Like where it ended up being very kind of like radio play stuff or college rock, you know, um, which was never what I was about anyway. Um, but I didn't really care except for people give, saying like, you know, you guys invented it. And I was like, I'm, we didn't invent anything. We just were punk bands and making music. But things names evolve or genres evolve or polo or punk. Yeah. The starts out as a derisive, you know, and then people claim it and then it becomes something that like they redefine it. So I think that, I assume emo refi. I do think emo as a form.
Speaker 3:
58:43
There's something a little comfortable about it for me. Like the, the, it's a comfort food with, and that is, that doesn't resonate well with me. Like is to not smug by this. It's a different, it's a different form, you know, like I'm always sort of way, I just want to keep being weird till it feels too easy. I don't know. I can't, I, it's hard to really, I just don't relate to her on that level. Yeah. You know, you're seeing bands that were referred to as emo or Banjo refer to themselves as emo and never feeling like, well, what is, why? What is the, what is it like I don't see the thing, I don't see what the, you know, I, I couldn't see me. There's a variety of, um, mud made banty emo and may a variety of reasons that people use that term.
Speaker 3:
59:32
I mean it's interesting when it hit the mainstream and then the mainstream people think, you know, hair and the certain pants and a bell and it turned into this, you know, fashion thing. I feel like that is permeated. So even if you do use the word, there's an instant snicker or an instant marginalization of the genre because of that. Or maybe it was from the beginning. It was, there was a snicker from Brian by was stars a snicker? Yeah, for sure. So maybe that's, that's the life that it's, it's, it's, it's kind of weird to me like I have to say that, you know, you're, if you're a podcast was called, you know, two by four or of your pie cash had been called, um, you know, wash the glass glass box. Yeah. I would have been more, I've would have been probably more quickly, I would have more quickly been willing to speak with you, but washed up emos I F I was one of your first questions. It was like, what's the name? I mean you make stuff up, you say it. I just thought I thought it was a, there a little bit older and they're still respected and there, and again it was whose day? Just the bands like bands, music. Like I had thought that, but it's a stupid name. So it's Ha I've had happen where people don't want to beyond, um, or don't work art just because it's, but also they were in a band that people would not listen to because they were associated with that word,
Speaker 1:
61:06
who
Speaker 3:
61:08
there's, who would not, who doesn't want to be on [inaudible] they're banded people won't listen to because there've been associated with that word. No, they try to distance themselves. So if, if a, if a magazine had said x, they would try and distance themselves. And I think it's, I guess the word's always had that feeling to it or the poor they or people claimed it true. You know, I'm a here to think about that kind of labeling, um, like rack racking or genre stuff, especially on, it's nebulous. Um
Speaker 1:
61:44
hmm.
Speaker 3:
61:45
Like when forgot just started a tour.
Speaker 3:
61:49
Well, I would call him and tell people that you booked the shows, you cannot put Meijer threat on the flyers x threat. Um, or if you do get to put rites of spring on whatever, just church. But making them actually make them engaged. So it's not just like Martha and Martha and Martha. My thinking at the time was is that if you use something like that, imagine like it was a horse and you can just put a rain on it and it pulls your cart. So you selling to promote yourself, right? It's pulling you along. Um, same wave with a genre like emotes where they used as a way to pull your band along into the, into sort of the public eye. Well some point the horse will die and if you keep moving you got to drag it behind you. It becomes an anchor and that's the way I felt about like things like emo or taglines like that where you, if you lie, if you have you tie onto that sort of thing and like, like you said, if they eventually it's going to be kind of that flyer or name on all the [inaudible] things.
Speaker 3:
62:56
It's gonna re always in. We're always, if I had said, you know Meyer threat, Meyer threat, if I use that to promote the band it would have destroyed Fulgazi
Speaker 3:
63:06
because it would've been not, we wanted to go tour as for Gassy and we played them in our first tour we had we, we tore for almost a year with no records over a year with no records at all. Yeah. And the idea was go be a band, we'll play shows and then by the time people we do put a record out, we will establish ourselves as a band, not as Meijer thread. It won't be like the reviewer's going like, well this is the new Myer threat record revenue and new. If they did, the four of us would be impervious because we know what the fuck we are. Yeah, we're a band. And that was sort of idea. But the main thing was to not use something like a hook to pull us along, like saying like trying to use him to promote us instead, let the music be the thing that people engage with and let that be the deciding factor.
Speaker 3:
63:56
So I think they, yeah, I think that, yeah, wash up like the word emo. It was too nebulous to begin with. It was a joke to begin with. It became too nebulous. And I imagine for some people, um, it was sitting there trying to get there, using it to promote themselves and now they kind of live with it, you know, that's the way he goes. You're trying to run away with it or run away from it. Right. But I think that, you know, the end of the day, really, if you write great songs and doesn't really matter what you call it. Yeah, no, it's, I mean I've definitely interviewed hardcore bands and punk bands and so it's, it's, people know that it's not just that, but it's, it's uh, you know, I think that the punk thing was a little more wide open. I ain't [inaudible] to distill, distill distally distillation of a, it was more of a, it was almost more of a, um, there was a sub genre because I like, you know, in other words, I would say the emos like people involved with the emo where I was tends to be a part of punk.
Speaker 3:
64:53
Yes. But not all pumps are part of emo. It was, it was, I thought it was like from the hardcore scene, like post heart glory hour or even a hardcore, even that, that kind of like, again, hardcore was pong, but not everybody who's pump was hardcore. He see there's a, it's like a, so that's obviously like for me, but punk thing would, what I liked about punk was it, it was so undefinable, but also there was a, um, it was not mark at the time. At least it's, it was not a marketing thing. Yeah. That's the thing. It's the word then was marketed to and then it later and then maybe the anchor of that one band that kept using emo dug in a little deeper. Right. Once it hits the thing. You said a lot of the bands, I think it's interesting you should say that because I think that the labels at associated as sort of underground or punk labels, there are some that were pretty cheesy for sure, but I think that maybe in the end I sort of emo world, maybe some of the labels are a little more, they were like discord for instance was a punk was in is a punk label.
Speaker 3:
65:58
Um, um, and we make French sent, we didn't, and we don't use contracts. We've never used a single contract. Right. I don't have a lawyer. So that's sort of unusual and turn to record labels. Very punk in my mind. But I think a lot of the emo lip, the way people said the email, the stuff was very much in that world was much more Orthodox. They were starting labels and like they like we have contracts and they are, this could be a business, right? It's a business thing. So like there was a whole other kind of, um, I think people were thinking that this is a great way to like move our, sell a bunch of so much. Right. And that's just a different, it was, it's a different mission. I, that's what I felt too. I felt like if I was going to see that screamo band in the mid nineties and it was, they had their seven inch and they made it themselves and screen printed it, it, it was different when the band, it was using the word came back with the fancy sampler or the Super Rad screen print, whatever the one was. Right. But to be fair and to be clear, I am not looking, I'm not, I got no disrespect for people. I'm not saying like I don't have, I just know we're just, yeah, take a left on its own. To be clear. Like this is not, I'm not interested in my pointing at no band or saying nothing bad about anybody. I just more about the phenomenon. I do think it's interesting. It's, it's still around of course. Yeah. But that's amazing that it's, it's survived.
Speaker 5:
67:25
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
67:27
No, but big as business because the core of it is music and music was here first. Music is, I mean, have you read interviews with me? You've sure? I'm sure you've seen me. I've said music is deforming communication that predates language. So it's real, it's a real situation. And I think that, um, something a, how are you in your late 30? [inaudible] and 40 [inaudible] 40. Okay. So, um, so when you were 15 or 16 or something, I assume music kicked your ass, um, and maybe you saw some bands at a time that were identified as emo would ever, and you're like, wow, like my, the world just started to make sense to me in a way that had never had made sense to me before. And this was my soundtrack. So it's deep and it's real. Um, for me, I was 16 or 17 when I saw the cramps are 60 minutes of the cramps.
Speaker 3:
68:24
And so 17 when I saw the bad brains. And, you know, I saw those bands. Are they the world? Suddenly the world made sense to me. Um, and that for me it was punk rock. Uh, so however the word lives, right, someone's going to be 16. Right. Finding it at that moment, I say punk is focus blues or jazz is his beat is emo is hip hop. It's all one thing. It's just a free space. It's just a new idea and it still goes on. There's something beautiful about punk, but it's just the legs on this thing is crazy cause you can still, there are still people who are punk that's don't fear anything. I love that. The genre was not like, it's hard to be a say a Ska band without paying scar, but pumped is undefinable.
Speaker 6:
69:17
Your praying in school. Let's go. You picked up. No, you're gone fits in your head.
Speaker 1:
69:41
Hmm.
Speaker 6:
69:42
You call it religion. You're full of shit.
Speaker 1:
69:48
Mm.
Speaker 6:
69:53
It's in your head. You call it religion, you're full of shit.
Speaker 1:
70:04
Hmm.
Speaker 6:
70:07
You never have never will.
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